Ah, please excuse me while I remove this troll-size shoe from my gnome-size mouth.
I recognized the callback to your previous comment, but I’ve never seen Animal House. I didn’t realize you were making a reference with it.
I don’t get why Derek is so upset at Dorilys. She didn’t force Derek’s hand, and even her effort to stop Robbie was indirect. How distanced does he need to be to not violate his vow?
If he sees something being done by one of his subordinates, he considers himself responsible. When it comes to mystically self-enforcing vows, the rule literally is “what you don’t know can’t hurt you”.
Actually, I think it’s worse: I think that if the troll had suceeded then it would have been a violation too (maddie just ran afoul via informing Mimic). Derek needs to pick his vows of non-violence to better reflect his ability to follow-through.
He’s a high-level cleric. He could cast Sanctuary and interpose himself and that would pretty much be all that needs to be done. “If you want to go after him, you’ll have to go through me.” “…I really wanna, but I just can’t make those Will saves.”
He likely could have prevented himself from being harmed without smashing the troll’s face in. And he’s not one to allow circumstance to mitigate the nature of his vows. No ‘I won’t kill you, but I can walk away and let you die’ loopholes. Respectable.
I concur.
I actually hate it then a scenarist believes himself smart for resorting to the old loophole “oh sure, I’m usually a pacifist, but right there I was just too angry and I had to kill him”.
I would give a pass (sorta) to Batman/Dark Knight Begins, though. I saw it more as “I won’t kill you, but I am not gonna die saving you, either, so good luck following me”. Or more simply, I never put him down as a pacifist. Or as a good guy, in his recent incarnations.
Metagame thinking, I’m suddenly realizing (or realizing again) that having your character taking a non-violent vow, and role-playing it correctly while being surrounded by blood-thirsty teammates and facing a sadistic DM must be worth a few real-life karma points.
“Drop the axe, I want to have a chance to ask her politely first. And stop looming and making faces behind me. If she say no, we walk away, and you goons go away first.”
“No, I won’t go in the next room, I know you are about to torture him. You were talking about it right in front of me, you know.”
I get that he’s type that loathes the “well technically..” excuse to pacifism. But at the same time, he seems too wise and compassionate of character to expect or force others to uphold his standards and belief system.
I’m pretty sure what Dorilys did doesn’t violate his vow. I think it’s just that he took the vow because he genuinely believes that violence should be a last resort, and so he doesn’t like Dorilys jumping to violence when he doesn’t believe it necessary.
Long-time lurker and fan here. Frankly WOTC is the reason my husband switched our Eberron game to Pathfinder rules. I can’t stand their litigous attitude.
I promise, if I ever get rich (that’ll be the day), you’re first on the list of people I pay for providing free stuff on the internet. [:P] Rusty And Co is literally one of two places on the whole Internet that can get me to laugh. [:P]
I respect Derek’s vow, but I can’t help but wonder if he actually had a plan to stop Robbie in the likely event Robbie refused to be reasonable. Protective barrier? Soothe emotions? Bind limbs?…That sounds like a combination for some peacefully intimate lovin’ time.
I hate to do it, but I have to call shennangians on Derek’s loyalty to his vow of non-violence: although it’s not explicitly described, he allowed this altercation progress to the point of imminent violence *with*the*apparent*intent*of*provoking*Madeline* (one of his patients, no less) into action. VIOLENT action. His expected resolution of the situation would have been Madeline stepping in and using a certain level of violence (which contemporary justice systems would categorize as “due force”) in response to Robbie’s assault on Mimic; sufficient violence to stop his assault and either dissuade him from attempting again…or sufficient violence to make him INCAPABLE of assaulting again.
To let this course of events develop – in one’s own infirmary – kinda flies in the face of a vow of non-violence…
…of course, I *AM* assuming Derek’s undeclared intentions (maybe he was going to go with Sanctuary and bodily shield his patient from this interloper).
So, essentially, with the above plan, Derek hasn’t got a leg to stand on when playing the ‘non-violence’ card when DORILYS intercedes (when it’s clear that Maddy will not).
If he’d said something more along the lines of “I’m trying to accomplish something here; I can’t if you keep getting in the way of it.” I’d have no problem, but his berating Dorilys for behaviour (which wouldn’t break his vow…at least in the definition Voidbane references) rings particularly hollow.
His first news of it was the troll walking in. His immediate response was to interpose himself physically and try to talk him down. What should he have done that would have stopped it?
To fulfill your vow, you must not cause harm or suffering to humanoid or monstrous humanoid foes. You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such foes through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm. Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum equal to your character level. The duration of the increased penalty starts from the latest slaying. You may ask your allies to give you an oath that a helpless foe will not be slain. If the oath is sworn, an ally who later breaks the oath takes the penalty for doing so as if you were present. If you leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies, you have broken your vow. You may ask a defeated creature to give you an oath of surrender or noninterference in exchange for its life. If the creature breaks this oath to you, you can allow your allies to deal with the creature as they see fit without breaking their oaths or your vow of nonviolence. If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.
I notice that you can take that vow and still be Dr. Mengele, as far as any fae, dragons, outsiders, elementals, sentient monstrous beasts, sentient constructs, or sentient undead are concerned, without technically breaking it.
Derek might have a vow of non-violence, but Madeline as a paladin is required to be honest. Plus, Mimic asked the question, it’s not as though she volunteered the information. Sorry Derek, but your vow doesn’t stop others from living up to the requirements of their position.
I blame anti-Madeline. AM is all of Madeline’s evil personified. If that evil was pulled from her soul, she’s not wholly herself until that evil is returned. It would not necessarily be enough of a spiritual mauling to kill a living creature, but if the evil has taken on a life of it’s own, a paladin can’t really justify ending that life just to return from the afterlife. Additionally, a paladin gains benefits based on the sacrifices they make in the name of good. With no temptation left within her soul, where is the sacrifice when she declines?
How about sacrificing the private attention she is finally getting from the boy she likes?
I suspect she could “sense” that no action would needed to be take,
else she is resepecting Derek’s non-violence vow.
Why people gotta assume the worst?
;p
Is Maddie simply so infatuated with Derek that all her paladin instincts have been set aside as she’s close to metamorphosing into a leggy-beet in his presence?
It’s also possible Maddie knows about Derek’s vow of non-violence (previous to this scene), so even without his presence her instincts to clobber an evil thug is clouded by her desire to want to impress Derek and ultimately take their doctor-patient relationship to a whole other level?
Obviously Derek and his vow of non-violence is completely unfamiliar with the old adage “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”. If he refuses to take action, then the responsibility for the results is his. Since one assumes he is Lawful Good, that opens a whole sack of Alignment Conflict…especially as he *should* be placing the welfare of others above himself.
And Madeline…she *has* to come back to her Self! She’s the best part of this comic! Well…her and GC. And Rusty. And Princess. And…okay, the whole gang, but Madeline is my favorite. “That’s NOT WHAT PALADINS…*dead*” Wow. Right there, you *get* that Madeline is a true hero. Not the brightest torch in the bundle, but that just makes her more lovable.
I’m figuring Boxford is gonna have a heart-to-heart with her, remind her what Paladins *do*…
As for Boxford…he’s leveled up several times, shouldn’t he be a little more…useful? Seriously, what kind of feats or abilities or skills to mimics even *get*? GC obviously went full-on Ninja Awesome, but what is Boxford leveling as? I mean, if he can get an eye in the first adventure, by now he should be able to mimic hands of some sort…
Man, I can’t believe it took me till today to find this comic…but archive-bingeing was totally worth the wait!
I believe Mimic is more of a “face” character in tue party,
the one that wins all the social checks, as well as being quite roguish when need be.
I chalk up the cheap shot to being caught flat-footed…
he doesn’t have Uncanny Dodge yet!
To your first comment: It takes all types. It’s like C.S. Lewis said, “I can respect an honest pacifist, though I think he is wrong. What I do not understand is the sort of semi-pacifism that seems to say that if you must fight you should do it with a long face, as though you where ashamed.”
And taking a vow that seriously is very admirable.
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I told you it wasn’t over after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
I’m glad you were right about the game. I want to see how the rest of the team play the game.
p.s. Your WWII facts need some checking. The Germans didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor.
Forget it. He’s role-ing.
Animal House reference.
As the others indicated, I was poking fun at a joke comment I made two weeks ago with Animal House.
Top Quality Movie, totally worth seeing.
Ah, please excuse me while I remove this troll-size shoe from my gnome-size mouth.
I recognized the callback to your previous comment, but I’ve never seen Animal House. I didn’t realize you were making a reference with it.
The speech in question: https://youtu.be/ep-xgd_eETE
Worry not! I’m not some fuddy-duddy who thinks everyone has seen every movie in existence.
I highly encourage you to check the link provided above, or see the movie itself. It is basically THE College Comedy movie of all time.
It’s official: Maddie is half beetroot.
“Lift with the legs, Rogar, not the back!”
especially if sneak-attacking with a ballista
“Because I took a vow of non-violence.”
Violence doesn’t solve anything.
Actually, violence solves a lot of things. Such as winning this ball game!
I don’t get why Derek is so upset at Dorilys. She didn’t force Derek’s hand, and even her effort to stop Robbie was indirect. How distanced does he need to be to not violate his vow?
If he sees something being done by one of his subordinates, he considers himself responsible. When it comes to mystically self-enforcing vows, the rule literally is “what you don’t know can’t hurt you”.
Actually, I think it’s worse: I think that if the troll had suceeded then it would have been a violation too (maddie just ran afoul via informing Mimic). Derek needs to pick his vows of non-violence to better reflect his ability to follow-through.
He’s a high-level cleric. He could cast Sanctuary and interpose himself and that would pretty much be all that needs to be done. “If you want to go after him, you’ll have to go through me.” “…I really wanna, but I just can’t make those Will saves.”
I think the Sanctuary spell is still lame and weak.
He likely could have prevented himself from being harmed without smashing the troll’s face in. And he’s not one to allow circumstance to mitigate the nature of his vows. No ‘I won’t kill you, but I can walk away and let you die’ loopholes. Respectable.
I concur.
I actually hate it then a scenarist believes himself smart for resorting to the old loophole “oh sure, I’m usually a pacifist, but right there I was just too angry and I had to kill him”.
I would give a pass (sorta) to Batman/Dark Knight Begins, though. I saw it more as “I won’t kill you, but I am not gonna die saving you, either, so good luck following me”. Or more simply, I never put him down as a pacifist. Or as a good guy, in his recent incarnations.
Metagame thinking, I’m suddenly realizing (or realizing again) that having your character taking a non-violent vow, and role-playing it correctly while being surrounded by blood-thirsty teammates and facing a sadistic DM must be worth a few real-life karma points.
“Drop the axe, I want to have a chance to ask her politely first. And stop looming and making faces behind me. If she say no, we walk away, and you goons go away first.”
“No, I won’t go in the next room, I know you are about to torture him. You were talking about it right in front of me, you know.”
I get that he’s type that loathes the “well technically..” excuse to pacifism. But at the same time, he seems too wise and compassionate of character to expect or force others to uphold his standards and belief system.
I think that he isn’t forcing people not to be violent, merely trying to convince other people to be non-violent.
Dorilys is a medic, too. I’m guessing she took the same vow and just doesn’t follow it quite as faithfully.
No, she’s explicitly said that it was HIS vow, not hers.
I’m pretty sure what Dorilys did doesn’t violate his vow. I think it’s just that he took the vow because he genuinely believes that violence should be a last resort, and so he doesn’t like Dorilys jumping to violence when he doesn’t believe it necessary.
Question: Will you ever sell a printed collection of the comic?
No. The settlement explicitly bans publishing, selling, or distributing a print version of the comic.
Long-time lurker and fan here. Frankly WOTC is the reason my husband switched our Eberron game to Pathfinder rules. I can’t stand their litigous attitude.
And some people wonder why WotC gets pronounced so it rhymes with Nazi.
Ah, was wondering if that was the case. Well, drat. Thanks for the reply!
I promise, if I ever get rich (that’ll be the day), you’re first on the list of people I pay for providing free stuff on the internet. [:P] Rusty And Co is literally one of two places on the whole Internet that can get me to laugh. [:P]
I respect Derek’s vow, but I can’t help but wonder if he actually had a plan to stop Robbie in the likely event Robbie refused to be reasonable. Protective barrier? Soothe emotions? Bind limbs?…That sounds like a combination for some peacefully intimate lovin’ time.
I hate to do it, but I have to call shennangians on Derek’s loyalty to his vow of non-violence: although it’s not explicitly described, he allowed this altercation progress to the point of imminent violence *with*the*apparent*intent*of*provoking*Madeline* (one of his patients, no less) into action. VIOLENT action. His expected resolution of the situation would have been Madeline stepping in and using a certain level of violence (which contemporary justice systems would categorize as “due force”) in response to Robbie’s assault on Mimic; sufficient violence to stop his assault and either dissuade him from attempting again…or sufficient violence to make him INCAPABLE of assaulting again.
To let this course of events develop – in one’s own infirmary – kinda flies in the face of a vow of non-violence…
…of course, I *AM* assuming Derek’s undeclared intentions (maybe he was going to go with Sanctuary and bodily shield his patient from this interloper).
YMMV as always. 😉
So, essentially, with the above plan, Derek hasn’t got a leg to stand on when playing the ‘non-violence’ card when DORILYS intercedes (when it’s clear that Maddy will not).
If he’d said something more along the lines of “I’m trying to accomplish something here; I can’t if you keep getting in the way of it.” I’d have no problem, but his berating Dorilys for behaviour (which wouldn’t break his vow…at least in the definition Voidbane references) rings particularly hollow.
Allowed?
His first news of it was the troll walking in. His immediate response was to interpose himself physically and try to talk him down. What should he have done that would have stopped it?
Vow of Nonviolence
…
…
To fulfill your vow, you must not cause harm or suffering to humanoid or monstrous humanoid foes. You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such foes through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm. Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum equal to your character level. The duration of the increased penalty starts from the latest slaying. You may ask your allies to give you an oath that a helpless foe will not be slain. If the oath is sworn, an ally who later breaks the oath takes the penalty for doing so as if you were present. If you leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies, you have broken your vow. You may ask a defeated creature to give you an oath of surrender or noninterference in exchange for its life. If the creature breaks this oath to you, you can allow your allies to deal with the creature as they see fit without breaking their oaths or your vow of nonviolence. If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.
I notice that you can take that vow and still be Dr. Mengele, as far as any fae, dragons, outsiders, elementals, sentient monstrous beasts, sentient constructs, or sentient undead are concerned, without technically breaking it.
Derek might have a vow of non-violence, but Madeline as a paladin is required to be honest. Plus, Mimic asked the question, it’s not as though she volunteered the information. Sorry Derek, but your vow doesn’t stop others from living up to the requirements of their position.
Did Madeline accidentally commit an evil act in the afterlife and lose her abilities?
I blame anti-Madeline. AM is all of Madeline’s evil personified. If that evil was pulled from her soul, she’s not wholly herself until that evil is returned. It would not necessarily be enough of a spiritual mauling to kill a living creature, but if the evil has taken on a life of it’s own, a paladin can’t really justify ending that life just to return from the afterlife. Additionally, a paladin gains benefits based on the sacrifices they make in the name of good. With no temptation left within her soul, where is the sacrifice when she declines?
How about sacrificing the private attention she is finally getting from the boy she likes?
I suspect she could “sense” that no action would needed to be take,
else she is resepecting Derek’s non-violence vow.
Why people gotta assume the worst?
;p
People seem to forget that Maddie was practically the same up until her death. Anti-Maddie was taken out of her a long time before that.
maybe start-up code only essential for cold/dead boots
Is Maddie simply so infatuated with Derek that all her paladin instincts have been set aside as she’s close to metamorphosing into a leggy-beet in his presence?
It’s also possible Maddie knows about Derek’s vow of non-violence (previous to this scene), so even without his presence her instincts to clobber an evil thug is clouded by her desire to want to impress Derek and ultimately take their doctor-patient relationship to a whole other level?
^This.
Yes.
Improbable. Remember that Dorilys was aware of the problem when Derek wasn’t; she must have seen it when he wasn’t there.
It seems to be traumatic amnesia resulting from death; And from (essentially) being tortured to death by Grinner.
Obviously Derek and his vow of non-violence is completely unfamiliar with the old adage “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”. If he refuses to take action, then the responsibility for the results is his. Since one assumes he is Lawful Good, that opens a whole sack of Alignment Conflict…especially as he *should* be placing the welfare of others above himself.
And Madeline…she *has* to come back to her Self! She’s the best part of this comic! Well…her and GC. And Rusty. And Princess. And…okay, the whole gang, but Madeline is my favorite. “That’s NOT WHAT PALADINS…*dead*” Wow. Right there, you *get* that Madeline is a true hero. Not the brightest torch in the bundle, but that just makes her more lovable.
I’m figuring Boxford is gonna have a heart-to-heart with her, remind her what Paladins *do*…
As for Boxford…he’s leveled up several times, shouldn’t he be a little more…useful? Seriously, what kind of feats or abilities or skills to mimics even *get*? GC obviously went full-on Ninja Awesome, but what is Boxford leveling as? I mean, if he can get an eye in the first adventure, by now he should be able to mimic hands of some sort…
Man, I can’t believe it took me till today to find this comic…but archive-bingeing was totally worth the wait!
I believe Mimic is more of a “face” character in tue party,
the one that wins all the social checks, as well as being quite roguish when need be.
I chalk up the cheap shot to being caught flat-footed…
he doesn’t have Uncanny Dodge yet!
To your first comment: It takes all types. It’s like C.S. Lewis said, “I can respect an honest pacifist, though I think he is wrong. What I do not understand is the sort of semi-pacifism that seems to say that if you must fight you should do it with a long face, as though you where ashamed.”
And taking a vow that seriously is very admirable.
I hope we get a comic this week.